Skeptics????

[briankey]

As I read thru the Bible tonight in the book of Deuteronomy ch-18 Vs 9-10-11-12, I think Proves the existance of Ghosts, because in this section of the Bible, its tells how God isnt too happy with People who study the Paranormal, and in Verse 12, he basically says he isnt pleased with those who seek out Spirits of the Dead.

Most people know that the Bible is full of Paranormal activity, if there is a skeptic out there who may be religious, and still doesnt believe in Ghosts, look up the Bible verses for yourself.

[Brad-LaSpirits]

Isnt it sort of ironic that "God isnt too happy with people who study the paranormal", yet isnt praying to the "holy SPIRIT" and "holy GHOST" could also me loosely translated into studying the paranormal??

[Rachael-LA. Spirits]

Well, Brad, I have to believe that the "Holy GHOST" wouldn't exactly fit the definition of paranormal as far as God would be concerned or as far as a Christian believer would be concerned. As always, it just depends of the perspective of each individual. What the Bible says is do not seek to conjure spirits of the dead, or dabble with witches or witchcraft or soothesayers(psychics who aren't per say prophets of God) which is basically humanity's definition of paranormal, again... depending on your perspective.

[Brad-LaSpirits]

Im just pulling key words (i.e. spirits=spirits & ghosts=ghosts) People will and can misconstrue things as much as they want.

[Rachael-LA. Spirits]

I agree... as I said, just depends on the perspective from which you are examining the situation.

[paranormalis50]

Okay, I think I'll jump into this one and see if I can't get myself in trouble with all concerned. We have the term "perspective", but I'm not sure we are seeing the perspective of "perspective". The other term is paranormal. This is usually defined as that which lies outside "the range of normal experience or scientific explanation, or that indicates phenomena that are understood to be outside of science's current ability to explain or measure". That sounds like a technical definition. Okay, so is there another kind?? Yes, besides a technical definition, we often get in trouble with "common usage". It's how we "normally" think of a term. Who's "we"?? What's "normal"??

So, is religion "paranormal"? I don't think it could not be, under the technical term. But, under common usage, is it paranormal? Perspective, of the who, what, when ,where, and why.

Common usage. Paranormal. Study of the survival of the human spirit beyond bodily death.
One branch in the tree. Depending on which branch of the tree you stand on, the most important one??? How about PK?? Objects supposedly moved by the power of the human mind. Science? Paranormal? Parapsychology? Witchcraft? Might depend on whether you are standing on the front steps of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or in Salem, Massachusetts. And certainly in what year. And, if a few years ago (couple of hundred), on the main street of Salem, don't "flick your Bic", or more might get burned than you are counting on.

Now, let's get deeper. God. We don't have all the answers. Guidelines, but not all the answers. Let's take the hopeful, generally accepted stance, "God is alive". Then, by the survivalist theory, since God is alive, not having passed away, there is no "paranormal/deceased", common usage, spirit of the dead. Any manifestation would be that of a Living Being. Holy Spirit. Doesn't fit the common usage definition of a "spirit". From a parapsychology standpoint, it might be closer, though not exact, to the manifestation of "out-of-body" experience, though we know not the form of the Body.

Much of the divination of spirits was done for purpose of enslavement of that spirit. Or, gain of "illicit" knowledge. Generally today, we don't believe spirits of the deceased gain knowledge suddenly at death. Not the kind that was sought after, turning lead to gold, building flying machines, ultimate weapons of war. No wonder that was prohibited. These searches often resulted in "fixations", "obsessions". These can be not healthy, regardless of the object fixated upon. And, to the best of my knowledge, no one hits the lottery regularly by spirit divination.

To get a little deeper, God gave us His Word. Quite a while back. People wrote it down. We still have many versions, different, but all God's Word. How might have we, in our vanity and personal piety, have adulterated The Word. It's been revised many times, by people we accept as inspired, and infallible. These are the same people we accepted as inspired and infallible, when Galileo was locked up for having the audacity to say the earth circled around the sun, when the Pope said it didn't. Confused? Definitely read what Guidelines we have, then, afterward, try Personal Communications for answers. Go to the Source. Cut out the middleman.

[Rachael-LA. Spirits]

OK. That's just too much for me to take in on this particular day. I'll re-read tomorrow, John.

[paranormalis50]

Okay. It's just both personal and "open discussion" opinion. Not intended to be any type of official opinion. And, by the time you re-read, I may add a litttle more "open discussion" opinion, depending on available time today/tonight. These floods have been working me day and night. Worked Sunday, when I originally planned to do some data/EVP/video analysis. I did some paperwork on the floods last night, and didn't even get to this board until around midnight, after only 2 hours sleep the previous night. So, I may have rambled a little on the above post.

[Brad-LaSpirits]

Turning water into wine=paranormal
Feeding a mass of people with two fish=paranormal
Rising from the dead=paranormal

lol...that is why I always said I would never mix religion into paranormal.

[paranormalis50]

I might want to throw "prophecy", and "miraculous healing" into that mix, also. AND admit, that's not a complete list.

TOTALLY PERSONAL OPINION: I try not to exclude any area of science, the study of the survival of the human consciousness, or religion, when looking at the big picture. And, just about anything we "find", does contribute to the big picture. In the "paranormal", we are stuck in the middle, good and "bad". We catch if from both sides, critics and skeptics, but our positive data, as a science based team who believes the spirit survives bodily death (religious stance), tends to pull BOTH sides together, whether they credit that or not.

Science took a bold step toward bringing the sides together, however unintentional, several years ago. Science has been traditionally "materialistic". Then, along came quantum physics.

At the sub-atomic level, everything exists in a state of "potential", or "probability". Then, the "observer" observes, intends, measures, etc., and then the "vector state" subsequently collapses, creating an observable reality, from potential. Things get "created"? And "man" can do it??? Hmmmm....This creation from thought or intent sounds a lot like the alleged "origin of the universe", science or religion, a sudden coming into existence. And "pure materialism" died a quiet death. Things begin to move together, maybe not acknowledged in huge, public announcements, but there have been a lot of "quiet conversations" that have taken place on both sides. Everything that "traditional science", members of paranormal research, or traditional religion, claims is pretty much right in the middle on Kansas, Toto, compared to what has been found in quantum physics/mechanics.

So, are we all that far apart?? Are we that far apart, in reality? IF we can define "reality" after quantum mechanics. Or maybe, we are far apart, in rhetoric? IF that's the case, are we supposed to "raise the white flag", and give up, instead of pulling on both sides?

And many will attack, believing we are here to "tear down walls", and "bury their cities". Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply attempt to gather data scientifically and impartially. If enough data is gathered, the "truth" will eventually come out, whatever that truth may be. When the truth comes out and is known, only two possibilities can then exist. The walls will be proven to be unassailable, or they will fall under their own weight. No one will have to tear anything down.